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Post by bubblebuttsbabe on Jun 14, 2009 19:10:59 GMT -5
 ...and I'm about to complicate it and confuse us even more (tdavis, look away--LOL). I was under the impression that the 5 skaters per country was practically a given (we have to qualify in the top 8. Four of the five skate the relay and the other is an an alternate). What I believe is mostly in question until after WC 3 and 4 is how many of the five can skate individual races at each distance in the Olympics. Each country is allowed the maximum of three skaters per individual distance (if they qualify 3 that is)   ETA: 6 not 5 will make the team (2 alternates). The top 5 will be decided during the Olympic Trials and the 6th spot at the WCs, correct? I think I need to re-read the official qualification procedures for the hundredth time... We still have to place for the relay (like you said top 8) or else we'd just send individual skaters like some other countries who don't race the relay in WCs. And I still think we only get 5 skaters total at the Olys - I only remember 5 from Torino unless they added one more to keep up with the likes of the WCs. Um, tdav? What kind of examples do you need? Cause I'm finding it hard to think of things that could be useful. Did you want like things that could happen at the Oly Trials or ? Like, let's say these were the top 5 men at the end of the trials and then explain how they would get berths on the team? |
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Post by justsayin on Jun 14, 2009 19:42:37 GMT -5
Hi, all,
I have not been hauled off to the loony bin after trying to decipher the ST rules. Been away from the computer at a family get together this weekend.
sk8on, I think you're right about the number of skaters we get to enter in each distance race in the Olympics.
tdav, if you're talking about examples of how the skaters accumulate points at the trials and how that eventually translates into winning a spot on the team, I'll give that some thought. Let me see if I can work out some hypothetical math that works!!
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Post by tdav on Jun 14, 2009 20:19:07 GMT -5
Let me be a little more specific in what I don't understand. LOL
~ what determines what races a skater can race in at the Olympics? (e.g., if Apolo wins the 500, 1000, and 1500, he's qualified to race in those races in Vancouver)
~ what significance does finishing overall at the trials have to winning a spot on the team opposed to finishing (1st, 2nd, 3rd, etc.) in the individual races?
~ what determines if a country is qualified to participate in the relay in Vancouver (I assume that's where the WC's come in)?
~ at the WC's, what determines how many skaters a country can send to the Olympics (e.g., overall points, etc.)
As far as examples, like if Apolo wins the 500 and 1500, comes in third in the 1000, but finishes overall at the trials, what happens? And if J.R. comes in second in the 500 and 1500, wins the 1000 and comes in 2nd overall, what happens? Those kind of examples.
I don't know. I'm so freaking confused! My brain is hurting. LOL
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Post by sk8on on Jun 14, 2009 20:33:48 GMT -5
And I still think we only get 5 skaters total at the Olys - I only remember 5 from Torino unless they added one more to keep up with the likes of the WCs. BBB, I was thinking of the article we came across a few months ago that said the final spot on the Olympic Team would be decided by WC. Did I imagine that article? I tried digging it up to no avail. Does anyone know where to find that article? Or maybe then 4 of the 5 skaters would be determined at the Trials and the 5th (and final) spot at WC? Too many questions, I know...  About the relay, I referred to it as practically a given because, yes, even though I know we have to finish in the top 8 something would have to go TERRIBLY wrong in order for us not to qualify. |
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Post by justsayin on Jun 14, 2009 22:15:29 GMT -5
~ what significance does finishing overall at the trials have to winning a spot on the team opposed to finishing (1st, 2nd, 3rd, etc.) in the individual races? The USOC rules define selecting positions for the 5 team slots as: Three positions go to the skaters who are the point leaders in each of the three distance races, the 500, the 1000 and the 1500. The fourth position goes to the Overall total points leader. If the Overall leader is also a distance winner then the remaining team positions are given to second place finishers at the distance races. For the Oly Trial, it appears, that being the winner at a distance, ranks higher than being the Overall leader. And finishing second overall doesn't get you anything automatically. As far as examples, like if Apolo wins the 500 and 1500, comes in third in the 1000, but finishes overall at the trials, what happens? And if J.R. comes in second in the 500 and 1500, wins the 1000 and comes in 2nd overall, what happens? Those kind of examples. In your example above, if I understand the rules correctly, Apolo wins a slot as a distance winner, JR wins a slot as a distance winner. Two team members. Since Apolo has also won the third distance and the Overall, the three remaining skaters will be the second place winner at each distance. If there is a alternative who makes the team, it will be the third place distance skater with the highest point total. ~ what determines if a country is qualified to participate in the relay in Vancouver (I assume that's where the WC's come in)?
~ at the WC's, what determines how many skaters a country can send to the Olympics (e.g., overall points, etc.)Yes, WC 3 and WC4 determine both these things but there isn't anything specific in the USOC rules that give the details on this. The only thing I could find was this: "The ISU formula based upon World Cups #3 and #4 will determine the number of skaters per distance, per country. Each country may earn up to a maximum of 3 starting positions per distance at the Olympic games" But I have no clue what "The ISU formula" is...........
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Post by gasp on Jun 14, 2009 22:54:11 GMT -5
go to www.isu.orgclick on the ISU RULES link this takes you to a lengthy document I read through the index and the information being discussed starts at page 81. Justsayin' you are correct, I am dazed and confused. I bet each one of us could casually read this and come up with a different scenario of how this process works. Frankly, I'm headed to the math department at our local university and have them do a flow chart for me. LOL : ) |
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Post by bubblebuttsbabe on Jun 15, 2009 5:02:52 GMT -5
adding to what justsayin was saying, tdav -
~ what determines if a country is qualified to participate in the relay in Vancouver (I assume that's where the WC's come in)?
Yeah, we have to finish top 8 I believe to get to race in the relays in Vancouver.
~ at the WC's, what determines how many skaters a country can send to the Olympics (e.g., overall points, etc.)
We have up to get 3 skaters in the top 8 to get 3 individual spots in Vancouver. If we want 2 individual skaters, we need 2 skaters in the top 32 which I think is determined by overall points after both WCs.
As far as examples, like if Apolo wins the 500 and 1500, comes in third in the 1000, but finishes overall at the trials, what happens? And if J.R. comes in second in the 500 and 1500, wins the 1000 and comes in 2nd overall, what happens? Those kind of examples.
When it comes to distance qualification, both races of a distance count.
If Apolo wins both 500 #1 and 500 #2 and 1500 #1 and 1500 #2 (plus I think they take into account the time trial for this distance), then he would race in both distances in Vancouver. However, if he placed in 3rd for both 1000 #1 and 1000 #2, he wouldn't race it. Finishing overall would give Apolo an Olympic berth but he really wouldn't need it since he would already get one from winning the 500 and 1500.
With J.R. it's the same thing - he'd skate the 1000m and most likely the 500 and 1500. And his 2nd place overall finish would have probably given him an Olympic berth but it wouldn't be needed since he already finished with a distance qualification.
The second spot for the 1000m would be left up to someone else most likely. As well as the overall classification.
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Post by bubblebuttsbabe on Jun 15, 2009 5:04:00 GMT -5
And I still think we only get 5 skaters total at the Olys - I only remember 5 from Torino unless they added one more to keep up with the likes of the WCs. BBB, I was thinking of the article we came across a few months ago that said the final spot on the Olympic Team would be decided by WC. Did I imagine that article? I tried digging it up to no avail. Does anyone know where to find that article? Or maybe then 4 of the 5 skaters would be determined at the Trials and the 5th (and final) spot at WC? Too many questions, I know... About the relay, I referred to it as practically a given because, yes, even though I know we have to finish in the top 8 something would have to go TERRIBLY wrong in order for us not to qualify. Oh. I get it. I think I forgot about the article. Hmm... |
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Post by tdav on Jun 16, 2009 0:11:02 GMT -5
Here's another scenario:
Apolo wins both 500, 1000, and 1500m races, as well as the time trials.
J.R. comes in second in both 500, 1000, and 1500m races, as well as the time trials.
Jeff (if he's recoverd) comes in third in 1000 #1 but fifth in 1000 #2 and Jordan comes in fourth in 1000 #1 and third in 1000 #2.
Jeff comes in in third in both 1500m races and Jordan comes in fourth in both 1500m races.
What happens? Notice I didn't take into account their time trials, the fourth place finisher in 1000m #2, or the 500m races so someone can calculate all of that out, along with the stuff up there.
~
These freaking spots aren't determined by Overall classification out of the whole competition, right? The Korean trials are sooooo much easier. Their's is basically determined by overall points from their domestic trials and the World Cup points combined (as well as what the coaches think is best).
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Post by bubblebuttsbabe on Jun 16, 2009 3:28:35 GMT -5
Here's another scenario:
Apolo wins both 500, 1000, and 1500m races, as well as the time trials.
Apolo gets a an Olympic berth for winning a distance. He would then race the 500, 1000, and 1500.
J.R. comes in second in both 500, 1000, and 1500m races, as well as the time trials.
Same for J.R. - he'd get a berth and would race all three distances.
Jeff (if he's recoverd) comes in third in 1000 #1 but fifth in 1000 #2 and Jordan comes in fourth in 1000 #1 and third in 1000 #2.
Whether or not we get to have 3 individual skaters in Vancouver determines how this plays out for Jeff and Jordan. Depending where they ranked overall at the Trials, then you would know if they got an Olympic berth. To figure this out, you need the 1500 race results because I just reread the info and they take into account not only the distances raced twice, BUT 1/3 of the points from both 1500 and the 9-lap time trial.
But for argument's sake, I think Jordan would take the 3rd spot for the 1000 because if he would have more points just for the that distance alone, but that's only if we had 3 individual skaters in Vancouver.
Jeff comes in in third in both 1500m races and Jordan comes in fourth in both 1500m races.
I think Jeff would take the 3rd spot for the 1500.
~
These freaking spots aren't determined by Overall classification out of the whole competition, right? The Korean trials are sooooo much easier. Their's is basically determined by overall points from their domestic trials and the World Cup points combined (as well as what the coaches think is best).
I think they've made it harder. I don't remember it being this difficult to figure out for Torino. It was just top 5 basically got a berth and then distances were figured out based on how a person placed. An example would have been that if the 5th placed skater placed 1st in a distance, they skated it even though they weren't #1 or #2 overall.
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Post by aaosmts19 on Jun 16, 2009 6:57:05 GMT -5
While we're discussing this, at what point does Apolo absolutely know he is going to Vancouver? I mean, in our wildest dreams, it is possible that something unforeseen happens and he doesn't make it.
For people going to Michigan....will people see the defining moment when he know he is going? Or does that need to play out all the way thru WC1 and WC2.
Thanks!
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Post by aaosmts19 on Jun 16, 2009 15:39:05 GMT -5
In re-reading thru this thread, it looks like these folks have either expressed an interest or bought tix already: skaterswaltz, AOFreak, Susie, Gasp, RinkyDink, Mtmne. moi. Just checked airfares again and they haven't really come down any in the past 4 months. From Boston about $330. Briedy mentioned this schedule earlier, from Ice Chips...and Lily mentioned the dates of the 9-13, so I'm confused as to the dates. Either way, it could mean that if you only show up for the last 2 there's a potential (not likely) that you won't see AO race. Do I have that right? Day #1 - September 8 9 lap time trial 4 lap time trial Day #2 - September 9 1500m #1 500m #1 Day #3 - September 10 Rest Day Day #4 - September 11 1000m #1 1500m #2 Day #5 - September 12 500m #2 1000m #2 webpoint.usspeedskating.org/files/Event_PDFs/1078_Event_OtherDoc.pdf |
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Post by apolosgal on Jun 16, 2009 16:16:52 GMT -5
I'm definitely interested in going to this as well. But I'm not sure if I can yet. Thanks for all the info though everybody. =)
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Post by justsayin on Jun 16, 2009 17:09:52 GMT -5
Either way, it could mean that if you only show up for the last 2 there's a potential (not likely) that you won't see AO race. Do I have that right? Nope, AAO will be skating every day. He needs to, just like every other skater. The slots on the team are determined by combining the points earned in both of two races at each distance. So winning one 500, for example, doesn't get you anything but halfway there!! |
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Post by bubblebuttsbabe on Jun 16, 2009 20:24:49 GMT -5
While we're discussing this, at what point does Apolo absolutely know he is going to Vancouver? I mean, in our wildest dreams, it is possible that something unforeseen happens and he doesn't make it. For people going to Michigan....will people see the defining moment when he know he is going? Or does that need to play out all the way thru WC1 and WC2. Thanks! Honestly, Day 4 would be the first day we would know for sure if he could go - at least for one of the distances. But if for some reason he doesn't get the berth from the 1500m, there is always the 1000m and 500m depending on how he skated the first race for those distances. |
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